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Episode 71: Forever the Pain

December 21st, 2011 at 2:14 am (Eschatology, Debates, Hell, Annihilationism, Hiram Diaz, Eternal Torment)

Debate topic: "The punishment of the damned will actually be torment forever and ever." Hiram Diaz, creator of the Involuted Speculations blog and contributor at Grassroots Apologetics, affirms. Chris Date, host of the Theopologetics Podcast, denies. Moderated by Mike Felker of The Apologetic Front. This episode contains part 2 of the debate, including the second round of cross-examination, listener Q&A and closing statements. Listen to episode 70, "Perish in Fire," for part 1's opening statements, rebuttals and first round of cross-examination.

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9 Comments

  1. Nicolas said,

    December 26, 2011 at 4:53 am

    Hi Chris,

    Just finished the latest podcast, and found much new that was very helpful.

    I should explain that I’m a convinced universalist, but a fair amount of the universalist and annihilationist case overlap.

    Concerning your question re “development of OT passages in the NT” you may be interested in two cases in the Book of Revelation’s use of the OT. which really inspire me because of the way Revelation makes an OT quote even more “universal.”

    Is 43:19 Behold I am doing a new thing (LXX Greek: idou ego poio kaina) becomes in Rev 21:5 Behold I am making all things new (NT Greek: idou kaina poio panta) where the addition of “all things” (panta) really universalizes it.

    The other example is Ezek 47:12 … their leaves will be for healing. becomes in Rev 22:2 the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    The surprise, here, being that the nations (and the kings of the earth) who have been enemies of Christ all through the Book of Revelation, have now come in through the ever-open gates of the New Jerusalem (21:24) — and the leaves are for the healing of these nations ! Hope beyond Hell ???

  2. theopologetics said,

    December 26, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    Hi, Nicholas. Thanks for listening, and for sharing your thoughts!

    I don’t agree, and think this is a very strained understanding of Revelation’s use of these OT passages, one which ignores John’s point in saying that the wicked will be destroyed forever in a lake of fire.

    The Ezek. 47:12/Rev. 22:2 connection’s an easy one. It’s simply false that the nations have been the enemies of Christ all throughout Revelation. Revelation 7:9ff depicts saints “from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues.” The symbolic leaves of healing in the New Heavens and New Earth are for all believers in Christ, Jew and Gentile alike. This language simply in no way supports universalism.

    The gates in Rev. 21:25 are always open, but only to those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life (v. 27), and everyone whose name wasn’t written in that book of life was seen as thrown into the lake of fire and tormented forever and ever, symbolizing their permanent and everlasting destruction. So again, this language simply in no way supports universalism.

    As for Is. 43:19/Rev. 21:5, this again follows the permanent destruction of the wicked. Sure, God will make all things *that remain* new. The things which can be shaken will be removed, but those things which cannot be shaken–the kingdom of God, the heavenly Jerusalem, etc.–will remain (Heb. 12), having been made anew.

    The case for annihilationism is simply far, far too compelling for universalism to be a viable interpretation of the biblical data.

  3. Tyler Cowden said,

    December 29, 2011 at 7:32 am

    I really enjoyed the debate, especially after listening to one or two previous debates on this topic as well as several others you’ve moderated. I’m going to have to go back and review some sections of ‘Hell Under Fire’, especially a section by Greg Beale on passages of Revelation related to this topic, to see what I think now, because you presented a very compelling case, I think. The tradition and ministry-door pressures do scare me a little, but as you said, we have to see what Scripture says regardless. I’ll also have to re-think through some details of what happened on the cross if this view is true, related to Christ’s human soul (given dualism, to which I hold).

    Anyway, thanks for posting the debate!

  4. theopologetics said,

    December 29, 2011 at 12:41 pm

    Thanks, Tyler! I appreciate it!

    I have Hell Under Fire, and read Beale’s chapter on Revelation a couple of times, and needless to say I don’t find it very compelling. But do definitely give it a read. I would love it if you would email me if you find anything that you think presents a strong challenge to my case–first, to give me an opportunity to respond, but second, so that if I’m wrong, I can be shown it.

    As for what happened to Christ on the cross, be aware that there are and have been both dualist and monist annihilationists. Feel free to email me if you have any questions.

  5. Nicolas said,

    December 29, 2011 at 5:52 pm

    Hi Chris,

    Thank you for your very full reply. I knew I was being a bit goading by introducing my universalism, and so your answer was not unexpected! I guess what I really want to say is to ask you to keep that equally ancient Christian option open — equally ancient along with annihilationism.

    I really hear you when you talk about pressure to conform with tradition (especially the Augustine/Calvin tradition) and the lack of willingness to follow sola scriptura and semper reformanda. These are the same faced by anyone exploring a universalist reading of the Bible!

    re “the nations” entering the New Jerusalem, I’ll just add: I don’t think this can be taken as former Christians or saints. In both Rev 5:9 and 7:9 the saints are those taken FROM OUT OFF the nations.

    But it’s not just the nations who surprisingly turn up in the New Jerusalem, there is also another category: the Kings of the Earth. And both these have been enemies of Christ through the whole book, eg (6:15, 11:2, 17:2 &18, 18:3 & 9 & 23, 19:15 & 19). In chapter 19:19-21 they are destroyed and presumably end up in the Lake of Fire.

    It would be very odd if St. John the Divine suddenly changed the meaning of these words at 21:24 without any warning. So I think it’s the same formerly wicked “kings of the earth” and “nations” — but now they’ve thrown themselves (post mortem) on God’s mercy. I just leave that with you as a possible “wider hope”.

    Blessings. N.T.

  6. theopologetics said,

    December 30, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    Hi, Nicolas! I am open to whatever the Scripture teaches, and if it teaches universalism, I’m open to that. Like I said, however, I find the evidence for annihilationism overwhelming, and what I perceive to be the alleged possible understanding of two or three isolated verses is not enough for me.

    I don’t think “the nations” refers to “former Christians or saints.” I believe “the nations” is a general reference to the goyim, the Gentiles, and when spoken of can in context refer to all Gentiles, or only unsaved Gentiles, or only saved Gentiles. Context determines that.

    “Kings of the earth” is in the same category. Certainly the kings of the earth of the specific period of time described in Revelation–which I think refers to the years surrounding AD 70, up until the onset of the millennium anyway–may refer primarily to evil kings, but that doesn’t justify assuming that “kings of the earth” is always a reference to evil kings, as if every single king of the earth who’s ever lived is evil.

    In any case, like I said, the alleged possible interpretation of a few isolated verses is not enough for me. Passages like these need to be interpreted in light of the rest of Scripture, which I think clearly teaches annihilationism, and not the other way around.

  7. Mike Gantt said,

    January 3, 2012 at 12:26 pm

    I think you might be interested in a book I have written titled “Everyone Is Going to Heaven.” It is a thoroughly biblical argument, and it is not yet one I have heard elsewhere.

    To summarize: the Old Testament taught that everyone went to Sheol at death. Jesus taught that resurrection would lead to heaven, and thus everyone goes there - though not to precisely the same place in heaven. There is, of course, much more to it than just this. I hope you will consider it.

    Here is the location: http://wp.me/pKqSA-1

  8. Nick said,

    January 16, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    Hi Chris,

    Listened to your debate. It has got me thinking. Honestly, I’ve never asked myself the question of what eternal punishment awaits unrepentant sinners. You presented a great case. I’m currently in the process of downloading TurretinFan’s debate for more information. Both you and Hiram were very respectful of each other.

    I do have to admit that as a person who has not learned all of the “isms” yet and who doesn’t understand hermeneutics or really several of the ideas that seem to be “keystones” of reformed theology, the view you present definitely seemed to “speak” more than the other.

    In many ways, I really don’t understand why annihilationism would be anywhere heretical. Ultimately, what difference is it what the “eternal punishment” is? God can make that punishment whatever he seems fit to do. The argument you present definitely had a strong biblical backing. That said, I am sorry to hear about the repercussions of such views. Perhaps you could shed light on why those repercussions even came up?

  9. TheoplogeticsFan said,

    January 29, 2012 at 11:36 pm

    Chris, I was so happy to hear you do so well on this debate. Really. I was ecstatic. I listened to your debate about three times and I am sure that I will listen to it again. I grew up in the Jewish religion and am now a messianic Jew who holds to reformed theology so I did not grow up with the traditionalist view of Hell and have been a conditionalist as long as I can remember holding an opinion, both as a Jew and as a Messianic Jew though I didn’t know that it was called conditionalism until I started listening to your podcast. I was so happy to hear someone stand up on this topic and champion God’s character, namely, His divine Justice and His Holy Mercy as expressed through his Judgement. This is a very important subject not only because conditionalism describes the Holyness and Goodness of Hashem where traditionalism fails but also because it affects the way that we present the Gospel. When I share the gospel I tell my audience about the JUSTICE of God that pays the wicked back what they DESERVE and not more and not less and I tell them about the SUFFICIENCY of Christ’s atoning sacrifice which was enough of a punishment to cover ALL of our sins. Christ was not eternally tortured and God does not torture men less then or beyond what they deserve. I don’t understand it really… Just suppose, imagine, the possibility that Mother Teresa after dying went to hell as someone who tried to work out their salvation on earth through their good works and did not trust in the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice to save them and is eternally being tortured. It raises questions. For example. lets say Mother Teresa has family who are truly saved and like the parable of Lazarus and the rich man her family are there watching Mother Teresa being tortured throughout all of eternity without any way of helping her. Will they be eternally depressed knowing this? Will other Christians with unsaved family members, even children be eternally depressed knowing that their family is being eternally tortured? Or will God change them so that they now find joy in the suffering of their family members? Or perhaps He will wipe our minds so that our children, brother, mothers in the flesh and tortured but we are ignorant of reality? Now, let us say that Hitler is there with Mother Teresa in hell and is in excruciating pain being burned in a fire that does not consume along with her for all of eternity. I imagine that most any human being will be offended by the injustice of these ideas. So then how is it possible that God’s standard of Justice and Mercy are less then the standards of both the regenerate and the unregenerate to the point where even the heart of stone of the unregenerate is offended by these thoughts. Moreover, the idea has fueled resentment against the church amongst most all who consider it. I know that as a Jew, even as a believing Jew, I found and still find it offensive that most Christians would teach that millions of Jews, many who were burned to death in ovens are still burning and will forever burn, though as a believer I forgive and passionately love my brothers who teach this. Though I would affirm God’s right to punish those who sin against Him I do not see God honored or glorified in these teachings. I wonder sometimes if Christians have any idea of what Justice is. Shouldn’t the punishment fit the crime? Is Justice anything less or more then it an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth? Isn’t this Justice without mercy? Deuteronomy 19 :21 “Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. ” If this is what God teaches us in His Law which by His Spirit He calls Holy, Just, and Good then should we imagine that God’s Righteousness does not live up to the standards that He set out for us? Shouldn’t this stumbling block against the gospel, a stumbling block that does not come from a plain reading of scripture but instead from an unbiblical, Hellenistic-Gentile, Hindu-like worldview that teaches that a man is born inherently eternal be removed from the path to relationship with God, mercy, and eternal life? Moreover, this stumbling block is used as a blunt weapon by the enemy of God against the faith of Christians as well as unbelievers who have a hard time consciously and unconsciously reconciling their faith in a Just, Righteous, Merciful and Loving Creator with images from Dante’s concept of the Inferno. We have a responsibility to push against this stone. Pray that He gives us strength because every centimeter that it is moved lets the light of God’s Glory shine more brightly into the darkness that blankets the world.

    Ok, ok, Let me thank you one more time for your podcast. Chris, I refresh your podcast on my itunes so often and nothing happens. No new shows. I go to your website, theopologetics.podbean.com and there are no new podcasts. When is the next one!! I can’t wait to hear it! Will you continue to debate this issue? I hope that you will. May God be pleased with you and bless you and be generous to you and may your ministry grow and be strengthened.

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